that is the problem with manual update, nothing ever works as documented not tomention how easy it is to accidentaly dete data folders in command line. And then on top of that you have to disable apache meaning the whole server is down during the whole update process every single time!!
Mhhh, a little bit above another command seems to be shown:
sudo -u www-data php occ maintenance:mode --off
Maybe this works for you? Disabling Apache is nothing i'm doing during updates and this works fine for me.
In general if there are any issues with the documentation then maybe there is a place to report to report these? You could head over to the github issue trackers of ownCloud, could be possible that you can report something like that there.
I think you just need to consider that there are so many different linux based operating systems out there so not everything containing command line instructions are always working. This is probably nothing what can be achieved in a documentation of a software like ownCloud.
That kind of shows that manual install is not reliable, if even official documentation is either incorrect or unnecessary.
I got it installed evenually but it's not at all that simple. Documentation doesn't even mention that you will need to chown the new dir even though it will be required 100% of the time. Absolutely terrible documentation...
Even with that known and remembered every time you still have to go through securing permissions on owncloud dir EVERY time you update! This is certainly going to cause a huge number of insecured installations... I mean I am not gonna do that now after spending 3 hours on owncloud already, and will likely forget to do it later...
I think you're more then welcome to contribute your experience to the documentation. No one is perfect and i think no one can expect that a documentation is complete or fully reliable, linux is just a running target and is so different as already mentioned above.
First of all the docs I used are not Wiki pages. Second I don't expect perfection but I would at least expect it to be complete, there is no excuse not to include a chmod command when the upgrade will fail 100% of the time if it's not executed.
The only reason I am not using nextcloud is that cli client is missing one feature. I would recommend everyone to switch unless there is a specific reason not to.
And how do you know that it is known that the chmod is required? Maybe it didn't failed for the documentation writer and thus he/she didn't included it? Maybe the documentation is complete for the writer and he/she just don't know what you're currently describing?
I think a documentation can be only complete if people following it are giving feedback and reporting issues with it or even contributing to it for completeness.
I know because if you download a fresh .tar file and extract it, you will obviously not have correct ownership, especially since apache username is different on different distros. The only way the writer could have reasonably missed this is if they didn't even test the instruction they wrote. Again it's not a wiki so there is no simple way to contribute to it. Github issue sumbission is not even mentioned in the docs. Even if it was The last issue I opened had no response 3 even weeks later. The chown issue is not acceptable even for a wiki, let alone for non-user editable documentation that is used for both free users and enterprise users.
Seems you just have missed that part of the installation guide or are you referring to any other ownership / permissions?
But i can just again point you to contribute to the documentation issue tracker i have linked above if there are more things unclear.
I see no reason why we both should continue here as it seems we're running in circles and nothing would change as we speak. You probably need to take the route to create an issue, create a pull request with some recommended changes to the documentation or live with the current state of the documentation without complaining about that state.
I did not use the guide you linked, why would I when I wasn't installing but upgrading? I never said something was unclear, it is plain wrong or incomplete and untested/unverified. Like I already said github issues are being ignored, why would I waste time when at least 2 issues I have opened in the past have been ignored... Even if that's not the case, if admins can post untested and non-working guides there is something seriously wrong with the people in charge. You can't blame community for posting false information on a private domain. As far as I am concerned owncloud is a dead project, I will be moving to nextcloud at the earliest opportunity.
Because you have talked about wrong chmod commands during the installation:
Why do you think issues gets ignored? Maybe there are more important things to do or issues with higher priority? Neither you nor i have probably the knowledge about this so personally i wouldn't claim something like this out of frustration if you don't get the attention you're expecting.
Maybe it was tested and just didn't happen for the writer as pointed out above? Again i personally wouldn't claim something like this without having the knowledge/backgrounds on how the documentation is written.
Could you please point me to the post where i have blamed someone for something? I think there is currently a HUGE misunderstanding here.
Maybe you don't understand my intention to explain why there might be issues in the documentation and that it is only possible to improve a documentation if some one is reporting issues with it or contributing to the documentation.
Yes I talked about chown and chmod commands being wrong but when did I say that it was in the installation guide??
The reasons why issues get ignored do not matter, the fact is they are. Result is the same no matter the reason - issues not getting fixed. There is no point in wasting my time submitting issues when they aren't being looked at.
You are repeating the same thing again, I already explained that chown command is mandatory and the upgrade will not work without it no matter what.
I didn't mean to imply you did blame anyone, I simply stated that this particular problem is with the admins who posted the false and untested article which is disturbing.
I understand what you are saying but again again this was not a wiki, standards should be much higher, and false information is unacceptable even in a user-editable wiki.
To conclude maybe it could be possible to agree on the following?
We can assume that the documentation is written to the best knowledge of the writer / contributor. No one is providing false or wrong information on purpose.
The documentation might be incomplete due to the complexity of different environments and linux operating systems (i for example don't need to do any chown commands as the manual update is working for me without it).
Just complaining about the documentation won't improve it nor change something
Feedback about the documentation is always welcome as it is probably not possible to catch every use case (see 2.)
It is possible to improve the documentation by creating issues or by contributing improvements via pull requests
Issues are probably not ignored on purpose, developers have only a limited amount of time to work through the thousands of open issues and every issue is just one of many where everyone thinks that the own issue is the most important one
With that in mind there are only winners here.
Added:
Adding to 6. i was curios and searched on the issue trackers and found your only open issue which didn't get any replies yet in https://github.com/owncloud/core/issues/29974 and this was created five days ago.
I'm not sure but are you aware that there is currently Christmas time and people are not working, are on vacation or doing other things? Talking about ignored issues and a dead project looks to me a little bit overreacted or am i wrong?
Sure, but if the admin can't test what they post that's alarming.
This was not specific to any distro, simply missing a simple chown command.
No but posting issues doesn't fix it either (I tried 2 times)
How can you know it's welcome if issues are ignored?
Issues are ignored so, no not currently.
Again it does not matter why they are ignored, the result is the same.
Other issue was from a different account. I consider it dead, it's still around obviously... Since the dev team split nexcloud definitely seems better option, at least it's 100% open source without closed source edition. Reading a bit more https://civihosting.com/blog/nextcloud-vs-owncloud/ it seems there are some very compelling features in nextcloud, now I really want to switch.
As written i don't need that chown command when doing updates so it is environmental specific
Two times is IMHO no real proof of this
5 . and 6. IMHO issues are not ignored, two issues out of four of your issues not getting any attraction (one of it not even 5 days old and during vacation time) is no proof for this as well.
TBH i will stop discussing this here with you as we're still running in circles. I don't know what you're trying to achieve here but from my PoV those are all wrong claims based on some assumptions and a few bad experience you personally had which you're trying to mirror to a huge project like ownCloud is.
I wish you all the best when moving to Nextcloud, hope this project is happy about a new user with IMHO broken expectations.
I already stated why. It's not tested because it would have failed like it did for me, there are no circumstances where it would not fail.
You download a .tar file from the internet as instructed, so yes you will 100% need to chown those files. There are no circumstance where these files magically get correct ownership assigned for your specific distro.
I don't need proof, it's my experience. You seem to be invested in owncloud to the point where you are unable to accept that there are serious flaws with this project, that's unhealthy. No reasonable person would say that expecting official guide posted by staff members not to be false and incomplete is unreasonable. I think your expectations are unreasonable where you don't even think there's anything wrong with a non-working auto-updater and other bugs.
Ok, as this is now getting personally i stop discussing here completely.
I just can give you back that you're seems to be at a state that you're mapping a few bad experiences of one single user to a whole project and posting claims you even can't proof or are just plain wrong. This is really not a good behaving and really unhealthy or even a punch in the face for everyone working to make a project like ownCloud running.
And FWIW i never said that i don't think that there is anything wrong with a non-working auto-updater. I've just shared my experience from user-side that i never had any issues while using the manual update way and that this is working as expecting and the recommended way, nothing more. Adding to this its not even clear if your issue is really caused by some bugs and not just a plain issue / misconfiguration on your environment.
Anyway, have a nice morning, day, evening, night, whatever. Bye.
If you want to stop discussing then stop, don't just keep repeating it. You can't both stop the discussion and have the last word. It's not about my experience, it's about the fact that there are some disturbing issues with this project as explained several times already. To me it is enough to stop using the project entirely, especially when there are newer and more active projects. No one is forcing you to stop using it, but closing your eyes and ignoring serious issues is unhealthy IMHO. I have already stated 3 times exactly how the update guide I used was wrong. If you do not understand the basic operation of file ownership in linux then why keep arguing? I certainly wouldn't if I didn't know what I was talking about.
You keep making excuses to every single issue I mentioned, that indicates that you don't think it's an issue, otherwise you would just agree that there is an issue instead of making excuses for why that issue exists.
Well, its not possible to stop the discussion if you're insist on your wrong claims. How should i stop if it seems you don't want to listen what other people are telling you:
If there is an issue in the update guide then report it to the mentioned tracker to get it fixed (yes, i have repeated that multiple times and you're making just excuses that issues are ignored without even trying to report an issue to the documentation).
If one out of four of your open issues didn't get any attraction (the one created five days ago doesn't count) you don't have ANY rights to claim that issues are ignored.
You also don't have ANY rights to point to people writing a documentation that they are not testing their stuff or publishing wrong information based on ONE single part of the documentation you where struggling with.
Again those claims from your side are just a punch in the face of everyone working and contributing to ownCloud.
Overall no one is forcing YOU to use ownCloud as it seems YOU are the one closing the eyes on how to make worthwhile contributions to an open source project living from user contributions. Mapping the opinion of a single user to a whole project of thousands of users and dozens of developers shows another lack of understanding how community-driven projects like ownCloud are working.
I just have signed up here a few months ago to share my user experience i have gathered so far by running my own ownCloud instance, contribute something back to the community and help other people like i initially did here in this thread as well.
This was the worst thread i have ever read here so far and wishing now that i have never started helping here. Thanks to you i will give up on helping here and say goodbye.
This is a bad example for ungratefulness. A shame that this thread escalated this way, while most of the moderation team was on vacations.
All of the people who offer community support in this forum deserve a platform for polite and constructive conversation. We hope sincerely that stuff like this doesn't happen again in the future - but if, we will apparently have to intervene earlier.
You probably need to take the route to create an issue, create a pull request with some recommended changes to the documentation or live with the current state of the documentation without complaining about that state.